courting, dating, its all the same anyway, right?
Another post! yes... the need for procrastination really is that bad! I think i'm very very screwed for this essay... the linguistics will be fine, but this french essay? nope. I dont know how it really got so late before i realised the depth of my non-knowledge of the topic *cringes*...
Anyway! no more of the lame-ness of me for now...
what i really want to post about is Courting.
Just so you know, right upfront, right from the start, i will declare that im trying to be controversial. And that the views i express in the post arent necessarily my views.
My friend has this theory, that everything is in God's hands, and you could sit on your lazy bou-tom inside your house, and the "right person" would somehow end up at your door. Like their car might break down right outside your house, and they knock on the door to ask for assistance. So he believes that you shouldn't look for a potential partner, cos God will make it happen. I like that theory, sounds nice, doesn't it!! Very idealistic :) But isnt the issue of "finding someone" the same as all other areas of life in that if you want something to happen you have to be active? If you want God to move in your Uni campus, you have to do something about it yourself? If you want to make new friends, you have to get out there and talk to people? If you want to learn how to be a better cook, you have to start by cooking?
And what about courting anyway? According to Josh Harris (author of I kissed dating Goodbye, (oh my gosh, Josh harris has a blog!! or should i say "a weblog" and its like mine, only yellower!) a "successful" courtship is one where the couple find out whether they are suited for marriage or not. So a successful courtship is one where the couple decide to get married. A successful courtship can also be one where the couple decide they are not suited for marriage after all. Some people would argue that this sounds an awful like dating. And others would argue that its not a true courtship if the couple dont end up married.
Anyway Josh says that its really only a matter of terms anyway, its all some form of dating, he just prefers to call it courtship because it implies a deeper level of commitment.
So Josh became redeemed in my sight! Its just some people that have taken his ideas to extremes that bug me. People who are like "you can't be alone in a room with a guy/girl cos thats dodgy" or "a guy and a girl shouldn't travel (alone) in a car together"...
I guess my views are closer to courtship, except that i hate, absolutely detest, the term 'courtship' so i refer to it as 'dating with a purpose' which, sadly, confuses a lot of people, so most of the time i have to refer to it as courting anyway!
One of the limits i have set for myself, which is along the lines of something Josh Harris did, is to declare that i will not kiss another guy until we are engaged. I'm not suggesting that that is a good idea for everyone, but its what is best for me.
I remember when i was 18 or 19 hearing (sadly 'hearing' in this case means gossip i guess) that two of the older youth (in their early 20s) in our church that i looked up to were going out, and finding out that one of them had a hickey. (that part wasnt hearsay, i recall that she had told her friend) And feeling incredibly disappointed when i heard this.
Some may find my disappointment extremist, but i had admired these people, and for me, to find out that they were up to necking after about a month of going out, seemed to be copping out/giving in to pressure. Especially when they stopped 'going out' a few weeks later.
One other thing i've learned from Josh Harris/Rebecca St James is that when you do find your future someone, what happened in your pasts will matter to you.
When you kiss on your wedding day you will think "is he thinking only of me?" or "i wish i'd never gotten involved with 'Sarah' cos it makes me feel like i've cheated my new wife".
I mean you shouldn't live your life with regrets, but your past relationships may continue to bother you. I know that my brief involvement with Ben will play upon my mind even when i'm married, and i will feel like i sold myself short in one little area.
As Rebecca and Josh suggested, i think it is a good idea to pray for your future spouse. Anonymous as they may be. Ask God to keep them and care for them, and for them to be strong when temptation arises. And most of all for them to grow into the godly man or woman of Christ that he has destined them to be.
I dont know whether this is seen as extreme or not, but sometimes it helps to picture your future spouse, in their current life. And imagine, would it upset you if they were getting involved with numerous members of the opposite sex? would you feel hurt if they had kissed other girls or guys? become intimate (emotionally or physically) with someone - joined a piece of themselves to them forever?
For me, to think about my future spouse helps me to form my behaviour. I will try to act with purity and honour, and in a way that would bring glory to God. I know that we can think we have found the "right one" when we maybe haven't... but as well as thinking about how God would want you to act, it can help to think about how proud your future spouse will feel when you tell them you have only ever thought of them. Or that you dedicated yourself to them from a certain time and strived to stop looking for 'the one' and let God sort it out.
So i guess i am really fond of the verse "above all else, guard your heart for it is the wellspring of life" and thats why i believe intimacy with the opposite sex should be crafted carefully. But anyway thats another issue, i've been working on a post about it for for over a month, but hopefully one day i will have formed it enough to post it! :)
For now, i'm just curious to hear opinions and comments on the whole courting issue
Also, what do you guys think about pentecostals and non-pentecostals together? Is it along the same lines as someone who loves cats and someone who despises them? or is it just each to his own? You go to your type of church this sunday, we'll go to my type of church next sunday?
would you ever exclude someone from your potential partner list because they are of a different denomination?
16 Comments:
Hahahahahah!!! Thats great! It was funny enough reading the 'I'm trying to be controversial', and then moving onto relationships, and then you bring in pentecostalism!! Awesome!
Good luck with trying to break the comment record. - Should we take bets on different numbers of comments? hehe. I'd bet that you're going to break the record, but anyho. I'm not going to give you a free comment, so here's an actual comment:
I don't have much to say about the courting / dating stuff, I guess I agree with most of what your saying...
But with regards to pentecostalism, or more correctly denomenationalism, I think it is quite valid to draw the line at certian denominations - or at least, the prototpyical future spouse of the denomination, because theres a lot of variation within denomination. Ok, so draw the line with regards to who they are, what they believe. Why do I say this? I believe it goes back to what marriage is all about - One. Man and Woman are to become one. Two people should not get married if they have different mindsets. If the man thinks something should be done one way, and the woman thinks that that is wrong, then how can they become one? Its all about degrees, but I know that there are christians who I would not be able to go out with, because their way of looking at life is alien to me. The husband and wife need to be in agreement. If differences are small enough, then fine, but there are cases where differences are too big - either the differences need to be removed, or a relationship cannot happen.
I can't think of any futures with positive outcomes. What do you see a couple as being? I see it (in part) as a unit that works together, supporting each other for the glory of God. How can a couple support each other if one is trying to do things one way, and the other thinks it should be done the other way? If one needs to speak in tongues to feel spiritual, and the other feels like they can't be spiritual when distracted by tongues, how can they agree? Can two people walk together, unless they agree? So yeah, think about how a relationship would function.
The solution of "You go to your type of church this sunday, we'll go to my type of church next sunday" is no solution. If you did this, you would not be able to be fully involved in minsitry in church, it'd totally ruin your options for helping out with the church.
A good rule, and a good place to stop: If a couple aren't feeling comfortable in the same church together, then they shouldn't be a couple.(I like that rule, because it acknowledges the fact that some differences are allowed)
As Christians, surely we should *only* "date with a purpose" anyway?
And regarding the denomination thing, it's a non-issue for me. On the other hand, I'm not going to marry someone who isn't in a similar spiritual place to me... and denomination/pentecostal-ness may be one of the ways any difference expresses itself.
I'm not sure I agree with the you could do nothing and God will do it all for you point of view. There could be the odd case were God does do that but in general I think if your not prepared to do any thing God isn't going to force you to do something, or make every thing happen for you.
For example for salvation we are required to choose God. People generally don't do nothing (as in don't look for God and avoid anything associated with God) then wake up one morning saved because God decided to save them. We must choose to accept God.
I do belive for the most part in leave the looking up to God, however I think we do need to be doing something about it. The minium being that we need to go out and be some what social, so that we have chances to meet people and for God to guide people to meet us or us to meet them.
As for dating I'm not sure probably because I have absolutely no experince in that area. But personally I have no objections with people "dating" as in going out with someone to get to know them better or to have a good time with a friend even if they have no Romantic interest in them. As long as that is clear to both parties and that it doesn't go any further than simpy enjoying the company of a friend.
As for pentecostals and non-pentecostals I think it's some what irrelavent. There are compramises in any Marriage and generally denomination is life or death and with all the denominations it's not hard to find one thats a mix of what you want. If you really can't well theres plenty of other ways to get around the issue. Such as going to two services one in the morning one in the evening, one for each denomination. Also it's possible for the two to go to different Church services, if the Marriage is stable enough, with out problems with both going to one or the other every couple of weeks. In most church's that wouldn't cause a problem though for some I guess it could.
Brehaut: Su le contraire - If I really cared so much about the comment record why would I post a comment in reply to yours which should really be under my post? And me placing a bet on her winning the record? With regards to the validity of the 54 record, they have already been raised by michelle in the comments on my blog, so I see no point discussing it here.
As to comment records, the fact that Michelle is going for a comment record is undeniable (Note this is not to say that the issues she is raising are not real). Anyway, let us not bring a possible record of comments into question by commenting off topic.
Silly blogger not liking '#' in links.
Try this
Back on topic:
I'm with you on the no kissing till engaged thing. I've done enough stupid stuff in the past to realise that a kiss is precious and you can't just take it back. It's not something I'll ever just 'do'.
and the denomination thing- for me that's not really an issue. It's more their own tof's about stuff that matter, not what kind of church they go to. But if they had hugely different views than me on the pente/nonpente scale of things then maybe the relationship wouldn't work anyway? cos the differences would be too great, just like any other kind of differences not relating to God stuff.
i'm gonna stuff up the comment record -breaking attempt by giving you guys feedback...
Thanks, Breo... nice effort ;)
Chad, are you sure that it would not matter to have 2 marriage partners with different styles of worship? one likes traditional hymns and the other likes ragy youth music? One likes yelling out "speak it brother" while the other prefers to sit silent? Would one not wonder why the other wasnt participating? I can imagine it being really hard...
Ruthie... good to have you back commenting on my blog, hee hee! I definately recognise that if you have two differing views on something then its gonna cause a bit of a rift... yay - we can be kiss-free together! he he!
Nathan, i like your idea about being comfortable in church.. do you think maybe it could go even further than that? that sometimes you can be comfortable without being happy or truly in your element? For example, i am 'comfortable' in your average baptist church, yet find myself being expanded and grown only when im in a more pentecostal style of church...
i guess if you believe, like me, that there is not one THE ONE, but many potential ONES, then there will always be someone who is better matched in some ways, and someone else who is better matched in other ways?
mm... speaking of ones. Strong Bad also believes in Ones. REmember this: ONE(s)But I digress. hmm i wont say a lot here because we did this the other day on MSN! :D
BUt i will say something about the denominational stuff. I really think it depends on (like Ruth has said) what sort of individual feelings the person has. If they are hardcore denominalised (i think thats a real word. if it isnt yet, it is now dammit!) then they would have issues dating (ill use that word because i like it better!) outside their denomination. But if they realise that We all believe in Jesus as our Saviour, that he died and rose so we could be forgiven, then they will also realise that any form of worship is pretty much OK as long as it focuses on giving glory to God, and bringing us closer to him.
I personally wouldnt have a problem with intra denominational dating, if, and only if, my partner didnt try to bend my way of thinking and put forward the idea that this is the only way of worshipping. besides! If i go to a pentecostal church i can still worship God in my own way! its not as if you have to be a part of the crowd! heh heh... covert worship! the perfect crime! :D
Michelle theres probably a few denominations that wouldn't work out to well say Pentecostals and Reading Brethern or some other very conservative church.
For the most part though I'd stick with what I've said above.
Two things:
a) (Romantic) Love is not the be all and end all of christian romantic relationships. We are not to marry just for love, but we have a greater purpose.
b) This greater purpose of marriage involves the two becoming one, mutually growing together, and ministering together. If they do not help each other to come closer to God, then they ought not be together - otherwise you are putting yourselves before God. Pentecostalism (or any other issue) might be that thing that doesn't enable you to grow together. You might be able to work it out, but it might not be worth it, depending on a whole host of stuff, so much so that it should be dealt with on a case by case basis
In my eyes its quite simple. You need to be spiritually compatable. And Pentecostalism may just be one of the things that makes you incompatable.
So, Yes, the rule should be ammended to the ability to grow. If a couple can't grow together (in a church), then they shouldn't be a coupleI'm sorry, but thats where its at. I trust I don't need to restate myself again.
(Sam... A If and only if B implies A if B and B if A. So therefore you will go out with any girl who doesn't try to bend your way of thinking and put forward the idea that this is the only way of worshipping? Hehe. Yay for logicical terms not being commonly used (iff))
Interesting reading, seeing as I am in an interdenominational relationship...Up until this year, I attended Northwest New Life (RAGING PENTE RAR, RAR!!!)
Joy=) however was goint to Bryndwr gospel Chapel (Brethern, where half the ladies still wear hats every Sunday)
We did however both go to Avonhead Baptist in the Evenings.
This year, I have stopped going to Northwest, so I can go to Bryndwr with Joy. (it was that whole planning to get married thing, I thought it would make sense to worship together, and it's really nice walking to church together)
If I had my way, we'd be going to both the morning and evening services at all three of these churches, but unfortunately, they all have their services on Sundays!
Basically it comes down to believing that eachother's faith is genuine and being prepared to share it with eachother. If just dating, I see nothing wrong with going to different churches, but you should probably visit their church from time to time and discuss any differences you may have... You're still getting to know eachother. I think it would be a shame though for a married couple not to go to church together.
I also think that if you ever have kids, and want them to grow up committed to God, you probably need to set a combined example of commitment to Church, by going together, every Sunday.
Facicious comment:If you decide to wait until God tells you who is the "one" in an audible voice, you may have to marry a prostitute who is going to keep sleeping around when you're married...It happened in the bible!
(and people give this book to Sunday school kids!?!)
When I said "This greater purpose of marriage involves the two becoming one, mutually growing together, and ministering together.", this does actually encompass what you're saying. The Two becoming One ultimatly involves Love - do you think that I, of all people would promote a loveless marriage?
I didn't attempt to fully define the greater purpose - I had anticipated someone saying what you are saying, so I left a little room for other stuff. "This greater purpose involves" not "This greater purpose is".
The context of the scripture you paraphrased actually supports what I'm saing - 1 Corinthians 7 talks about putting aside the love stuff for God. So, obviously God is a bigger concern in a marriage than Love. For example would you marry a non-believer who you are madly in love? No, because christian marriage isn't all about love - God stuff is the primary part of christian marriage, just like all areas of christian life.
(I dissagree with your paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 7:9, particularly your use of the definite article. It isn't saying that marriage's purpose is sex. Its part of marriage, but not all of it.
Note, the larger context of 1 Cor 7 is that of sexual immorality (1 Cor 5,6) so this is a treatment of marriage coming from the issue of immorality.
Passages that are closer to defining the purpose of marriage: Genesis 2, Malachi 2, Matt 19 (or Mark 10) and Ephesians 5 (and cross refs). However, I would admit, there isn't a passage that gives a concise definition of what marriage is.)
Another Facicious comment.If you Should NOT go out with people different from yourself...
Guys and Girls are very different
Guys should not go out with girls.
You get all sorts of misunderstandings.
Some thoughts from my darling Joy=),"How sad is this, when I have to use Jim’s log on to post a comment on a blog?
Oh, where do I start, so so many comments I want to make and so little time to type.
Ok, my views on interdenom relationships….. ok, obviously I am in one and it is something that has always worried me (and my parents) about our relationship. We have spent quite a bit of time chatting about the differences in our opinion, which is really important and has kinda challenged me as to why I believe the things I do, is it tradition or God’s word? I’ve never felt comfortable of North West, but I would go with Jim sometimes for the sake of being with him and sharing that with him.
When he turned to me over summer and announced to me that he was going to come to Bryndwr with me this year I was stoked, especially since he just did it of his own accord, I’m also really glad that he enjoys coming with me. I don’t think I would be able to marry him if there could be no compromise between us over what we were going to do, it is important to me that as I couple we can share our walks with God.
As for other relationship stuff, yeah, I appreciate now what I wish I’d understood when I was younger, about getting involved with guys, you can never take it back, hmm, maybe I need to run this post past Jim before I say any more…..
I guess it means you have to learn to forgive and that our actions do have consequences, I do love Jim so I have to forgive him just as I would hope he would forgive me.
But then, a conversation we had one time showed me how guys and girls look at things differently, he said it would worry him more knowing that someone has planned their life with someone else more than physical things.
Ok, the other thing I wanted to say is that a relationship is a journey, as you continue on the journey together you will grow and change and change to be more like each other. For those if you who knew Jim and I when we first started uni will vouch for this, we were (and sometimes still are) complete opposites. He’s an ENTP, I’ an ISFJ, he’s loud, I’m quiet, he’s a ppl person, I get sick of ppl, he embarrasses himself in public for fun, I definitely do not, yet we get on really well and compliment each other, and I do think that we have giftings that work well together, had I let the denomination thingee come between us, then who knows where we would be now, I’d probably be working in Hamilton, being the lab rat that does the analysis for the company I now work for, now I’m the person who harasses the lab for results and tells them they are wrong.
Michelle mentioned praying for the person the you will one day marry, I have been for years, it’s kinda weird, but it’s cool to think that I have been praying for Jim for maybe like 5 years now, and I’ve only known him for less than 4.
All up, I guess relationships have their good and bad points and I imagine very few of us don’t have regrets but at least we can limit our future regrets."
Hmm... Well. I don't have a problem with the word 'courting'. For me, 'courting' implies a relationship, while 'dating' does not necessarily. I prefer to think of 'dating' as NOT implying a relationship - just to seperate it in my head. For instance, I think it can be good to just go out for coffee with someone. In this sense, they are basically a friend you are getting to know better. Whereas once you're in a relationship you're more than friends. How one goes from 'friend' to 'more than friend' I really haven't a clue - but that's how I distunguish between 'courtship' and 'dating'.
But I have a problem with people who are 'dating' people they have a relationship with - and they don't follow the Biblical principles for 'courtship' outlined by Mr Harris in 'Boy Meets Girl'. i.e. they mess around with their hearts without the respect and honour someone else's heart deserves - and without respecting their future spouse.
Those are my thoughts.
Post a Comment
<< Home